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CocoBolo - any advice?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=6246		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Jimson [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:08 am ]
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Last July, I scored two gorgeous B&S sets from Brad Goodman. One nicely figured cocobolo and (I think) the other is flamed mahogany.

I've decided that after four guitars(includes an LMI OM kit and a Martin kit ), that I am ready to build "The ONE". The classical guitar I was dreaming of 3 years ago - BUT, I have developed some anxiety about working with cocobolo in terms of gluing and finishing.

Is it really that different than newbie friendly EIR and maple? Are those red & yellow curls in the sides going to cause trouble when I start bending them?

I would very much appreciate tips and opinions from those who are experienced. Thanks in advance.

Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:15 am ]
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wipe joint areas with naptha allow to gas off just before gluing. Wear a resporator while sanding
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:20 am ]
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I am from the camp of dont wipe with acetone or anything else. I use fish glue on cocobolo, as in a test I did it was a lot stronger than titebond (on cocbolo anyway). For the back seam, I use CA. As for finishing, nitro goes on lovely.
Author:  RussellR [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:20 am ]
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Cover your arms and everything whilst sanding the Coco and shower straight after, don't breath the dust, I like to take the back and sides a little thinner to eliminate some weight, Coco is dense.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:32 am ]
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Respirator when sanding or bending, consider the toxicity of the dust, what about airborne contaminants. When I taught vocational the book made that suggestion regarding treated wood, don't burn it. So coco being quite toxic to some bipeds, you wanna be mighty careful.

I don't wipe and have had great results with Titebond on Cocobolo. A fresh uncontaminated joint is what I did, successfully. Good luck whatever you choose.
Author:  Jimmy Caldwell [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:40 am ]
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The only thing I do differently is glue the back seam with Smith's All Wood epoxy. Other than that I treat it like any other wood.
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:04 am ]
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I have built 4 guitars with cocobolo. I don't do anything special
I use tightbond on a clean joint!!!!
Author:  Jimson [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:46 am ]
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This is great - the full chorus of opinions already .

Can I assume that I can tell right away whether the dust is a problem for ME?

And - I was going to ask about thickness later on, this stuff rings like glass (literally...Ping!).
Author:  Larry Davis [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:01 am ]
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[QUOTE=Jimson] Can I assume that I can tell right away whether the dust is a problem for ME? [/QUOTE]

Sometimes. If you are allergic from the git-go you cannot mistake the rash and breathing problems. Coco Bolo is a high sensitizer and one can work with it for years with no reaction, but one day WHAM!! Skin blisters, choking breaths and so on. At this point you can only get worse and should not touch coco bolo again. The advice on keeping dust free and using a good mask is pointed at preventing sensitizing or delaying it.
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:02 am ]
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I am very allergic to most wood dust. I simply use a 3M 8271 Respirator
mask when sanding or scraping and I have been fine
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:17 am ]
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Don't forget, after sanding coco, and removing the mask...............

It's still around....

I highly recommend cleaning the shop area, to eliminate as much migration of material as possible.

Coughing phlegm for six months will make a believer of you. I do love coco though, check this out:





Author:  MSpencer [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:18 am ]
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Really nice wood, I have some problems with allergies as well, so I have stayed away from CocoBolo for B&S but have used it on Fingerboards, Headplates and Bridges. Definitely be careful and use a good mask like the ones the guys are recommending.

Not wanting to steal the thread but related

I have an older friend of mine who has a really nice furniture making wood shop. He does great work, however, his dust control systems are lacking. He invited me over and showed me his shop, he had been hoarse and battling some congestion problems. He had done a furniture piece using native Cedar (really red with cream streaks) and only wore one of the cheapy masks. This has gone on now for a couple of months. I gave him some ideas on dust control (all from the OLF I might add) so it pays to be safe, a little dust in the wrong place and the wrong type can really cause some long term problems, especially for us older guys who did a fair amount of body abuse during our sex, drugs, and rock & roll days.

Good luck with your new build

Mike
Author:  RussellR [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:34 am ]
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As Bruce says you need to deal with any reidual dust, I have fairly good dust controls in my shop, but even so will plan very carefully when working with Cocobolo I try to work it at times that I know I can go straight into the shower after, I get a tingling sensation on my arms from the dust, which is why I say about being covered, I also wear a hat (Yes I do look a sight).

All of this sounds very scary, but in reality their are many other woods that are equally as problamatic, just a question of taking care, and if you find you have a bad reaction then its probably best to quit using it, I know of many full time builders who have stopped using it.RussellR38826.8158796296
Author:  A Peebels [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:44 am ]
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I love working with walnut, but the dust messes with my lungs big time. Interestingly so far I've had no reaction to cocobolo. To be so nasty it sure does smell good. Also when thickness sanding use coarse grit, high feed rate, and light cuts. Use a belt cleaner often on the sandpaper otherwise the oil will clog your sandpaper quickly.

Al
Author:  John K [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:19 pm ]
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I really recommend that you take some precautions about gluing such an oily wood. I have made about 12 cocobolo guitars, which does not make me an expert, but I have noticed that braces can be made to pop off the cocobolo when stressed and the break is nearly always at the joint with both pieces coming off clean. I have read another (highly respected luthier) say that they always flex test when building with cocobolo and that if the back brace pops off they just reglue and that usually does the trick. I can't see taking a chance. I want glue joints to be strong points in my construction and because of that I always wipe the joint with acetone until the color quits coming off ( or stops coming off so readily) or use Smiths all wood epoxie glue. Smith's glue is pricey, but it does the trick and it dries crystaline hard, sort of like hide glue rather than titebond soft.

Author:  Don Williams [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:34 pm ]
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I think John K's advice is sound. I've had bad luck with titebond, even after cleaning the joint. There can be so much oil in there that just finds a way to leach through the wood and right over to the glue.
I had good luck with the LMI white on cocobolo though.

Fish glue? Tony, I know you love the stuff, but frankly it scares me because it's anhydroscopic...I have a friend who had several failures with it...so I'm reticent to try it.Don Williams38827.3829166667
Author:  arvey [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:59 pm ]
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I was advised against wipeing cocobolo with anything before glueing but Was advised to glue up right after jointing. Whipeing with Naptha seems to draw the oils out of the wood.   I use Hide glue and finds cocobolo glues as well as anything else as long as you glue fresh surfaces and don't wipe. I experimented with whipeing with various stuff and discovered that when flexed it always created a weaker joint. Acetone was the worst and Naptha the best but non as good as just that freshly jointed surface. I've had more problems with EI rosewood than cocobolo poping braces.
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:39 pm ]
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So there you go Jimson.... the wisdom of many different luthiers and their experience with Cocobolo.

The OLF disclaimer is on the entry page, and this thread is a good place to apply those ideas.

It could only be more complete if John Mayes had showed up and rendered his 2 cents. Where is that boy anyway?
Author:  Grant Goltz [ Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:39 pm ]
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I guess it has all been said, but I, too, do not do anything different when gluing cocobolo. Take the sides down to 0.08" or a tad less and it will bend like butter.

Grant
Author:  Bruce Dickey [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:10 am ]
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Amen to that Grant. I mistakenly forgot to sand the back down further than .130" on a guitar I'm making now and man you can tell it. Flip side of that though, I'm expecting terrific reflection of sound off that rigid and stout surface. Hype makes every mistake better, right?
Author:  John Mayes [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am ]
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I've used cocobolo a lot on my guitars. Great tonewood with a nice
midrange punch. Aside from some cracking I've never had any problem
with it. Good joint and hide glue and it's worked well for me! I make the
back and sides thinner due to the density....
Author:  stan thomison [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:53 am ]
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I have made more out of coco than any other wood. I have never had any problems (well except once rubbing eys and forgot wash hand of dust, which was uncomfortable a few minutes) Like John K, I flex it to make sure joints stay and like John M, I go quite a bit thinner and flex that for what looking for as fas as .75
I use only titebond. Sometimes I wash it with acetone, but sometime not. Never had one fail yet. Current build is coco for presentation to 3d Recon (USMC) for this years reunion of once yound studs and now a bunch of old fat guys
Author:  stan thomison [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:54 am ]
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just for tech reasons that is
.075
Author:  John Mayes [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:41 am ]
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[QUOTE=stan thomison]once yound studs and now a bunch of old fat
guys[/QUOTE]

Sounds like your describing me Stan! :)...but I'm officially on a diet...well
have been for three days. The worst part is that the progress and
changes come so gradually....John Mayes38827.4878935185
Author:  PaddyD [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:50 am ]
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amen to that john,


wait til you get a craving for some cheeseburgers or something, you would need a team of wild horses to pull you pack!!

paddy
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